Poll | Your view on Drinking
Sun, May 31, 2009
While the poll is closed, the conversation continues, and I think this has been a healthy dialogue. From my own perspective I was quite surprised by the results of the poll:
The Option that best describes my position on alcohol use is:
- Moderationist: drinking in moderation is fine and is a personal decision (77.0%, 234 Votes)
- Abstentionist: drinking is irresponsible because it can cause people to stumble (20.0%, 61 Votes)
- Prohibitionist: drinking is a sin (3.0%, 8 Votes)
Total Voters: 303
Given the recent surge in votes for Moderationist out of the blue it appears many votes came in from one I.P. This said, a clearer weighting indicates a Moderation-51%, Abstain – 46%, and Prohibit – 3%. We’re trying to work out a way that you can only vote once, but allows those on a network to vote independently. Tech talk ended.
Thank you for participating and for the conversation.
May 18th, 2009 at 8:39 am
Alcohol in and of itself is nothing. It is an ancient drink that has existed in various forms for thousands of years. Christians or non-Christians who enjoy it moderatley are probably doing no one any harm.
I say “probably” though because although they are controlling their intake by buying alcohol they are supporting an industry that enslaves countless millions around the world. I would imagine that some Salvationists today probably see no harm in enjoying alcohol (despite the fact that they are breaking their covenant in doing so). They often raise counter arguments like “being addicted to coffee is just as bad”, or “being overweight is a sin too.” But to put it bluntly, a coffee addiction is not going to cause someone to come home after an evening at Starbucks and physically assault their wife and kids. Or how often have you see the police paddy wagon outside of McDonald’s waiting to arrest the “overweight and disorderly”? I’m being funny here, but you get my point.
Is it not our prophetic witness to the world (and to the church) to denounce those things that would so enslave our body and minds, making us numb to the presence of the Holy Spirit, surrendering our control to a drug? And if we ourselves have the self-control to drink responsibly, should we not as Salvationists be in solidarity with those who cannot? I fear that those within our ranks who are pushing the Army to abandon its temperance stance are likely so far removed from those in the community who struggle with addictions that they fail to see the relevance of it anymore. I could take them to a few neighbourhoods and households that would make it real relevant to them…real fast.
May 18th, 2009 at 9:06 am
Well said Rob! There is a moral implication to your comment. If you buy Starbucks or other Fair Trade coffee then you’re fine, but if you drink Tim’s or brew coffee at home or eat non fair trade chocolate then you are also perpetrating an unjust system that enslaves or takes advantage of millions? By extension, the sin is actually the support or alignment with power structures which enslave and kill.
Excellent fodder for thought. Thanks!
May 18th, 2009 at 9:45 am
Rob makes some good points here in his thoughts however I think some are incorrect. Like many other items that we use today (Nike shoes, unfair trade coffee, Chinese clothing, etc) enslaved people literally, it is our decision to purchase these items. We could even argue that purchasing items at Walmart is not a good idea because it monolopolizes the smaller businesses in North America.
I am always reminded of a professor who always said that Jesus could never be a Salvationist because he loved the best wine (first miracle).
I think drinking in moderation is fine. However, be sure you know what company you are drinking with as some may stumble when seeing this action. Paul warms us in 1 Corinthians 8 of this concept.
May 18th, 2009 at 10:34 am
The question is; “What is my view on drinking alcohol”. Nowhere does it say in this question a soldier of The Salvation Army drinking alcohol. My view is simply this, as long as it does not enslave your body, mind, or spirit, then what is the problem? I am a soldier, one has signed and lives by the soldiers covanent very proudly day by day, but does that make the good man or woman, who has given his or her life over to God, who tithes to his or her church, helps in their community, treats their family in a loving manner and is a good contributing member of society any less of a Christian then I am because they are not a soldier. Having a social drink in moderation is an acceptable practice in both the secular and Christian world, and if we, as Salvationists want to be relevent to “The World”, then we should be a little less condemning and more accepting. Yes there are many instances where there is abuse, and Rob, you pointed out the issue of abuse and the fact that you could take us to neighbourhoods that would make this relevent to us; I am the product of the abuse and the neighbourhood, but, I firmly believe that it is more the exception then the rule.
To answer the question, “What is my view on drinking alcohol?” It will totally depend on the context of the drink(s). If I am a soldier, then I will not drink, but my brother in Christ who is an adherant of our corps and a supporter of the corps, community and family in every other way except he did not sign the articles of war statement about abstaining from alcohol wants a drink, does that make me any better then him? No! I will sit and have my addictive cup of Tim’s with him while he has a glass of wine and we discuss the work that we do for God’s Kingdom.
Blessings on Each of You, no matter which side of the fence you sit on.
Tony
May 18th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
Just to clarify, when I said that alcohol “enslaves” I didn’t necessarily mean “enslaved” in the sense that buying unfair trade coffee “enslaves” or exploits third world workers (perhaps this does happen, but I’ve not heard of the mass production of alcohol linked with exploitative practices in the same way that coffee, nike shoes, etc, has). I meant “enslaves” in that it traps people in a life of addictions. For this reason alone, I think Salvationists need to be in solitary with the millions of people across the globe who are addicted to this controversial drink. This has been our calling since the earliest days of our inception. And perhaps an aspect of our identity that needs more attention given to it in senior soldier prep class.
May 18th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I feel that if we really are out to help those of our family and friends who have problems with booze , then we must lead by example and just say NO
May 18th, 2009 at 6:25 pm
Great article.
We face this issue constantly in Ontario and I would have to agree, and say that whether or not we subject to addiction and think we can drink moderately, dose not matter.
Alcohol is an ill of society, and the only way to prevent it from continuing to devestate our society from over comsumption and other ‘side effects’ is to remove it completely. By being a moderate social drinker a person is enabling a very destructive force in our world.
In addition, if we are, as The Salvation Army, and indeed, the Body of Christ, to be a ‘place’ of safety, acceptance, and love, to everyone, we cannot support alcohol and the other questionable vices of our society. How can my corps be a place where a recovering acoholic can feel safe, and accepted when the members of that ‘body’ are advocates for the very thing that has nearly destroyed his life?
Blessings
May 19th, 2009 at 3:40 am
Rob;
I agree with your last points. We are living in a very hurting world and I believe that there are countless people who do indeed look to The Salvation Army for some form of help with these hurts. So in saying that, we, as Soldiers need to be united, not condemning but definately united in what we stand for.I believe the question, “What is your view on drinking alcohol?” is the type of question that brings emotions from deep inside each of us. While one may answer this from the background of being raised in a loving Christian family from birth, another may answer it from the point of view of a person who has lived the seedy side of what alcohol does. Pardon the pun, but this was probably a loaded question.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:54 am
editor’s note: I removed the name for anonymity, but let the comment stand in its raw form. The writer makes a point about how we make judgments based on appearance.
I was abused regularly by a man with a violent temper who wore the uniform and was front and center at a corps every week. Despite this I got out when I could and got my life turned around. I have a wonderful husband and child and we do enjoy wine with dinner and occassionally a social drink and we occassionally go to a casino.
I guess by your definition the man who abused me, my brother and my mother is a decent Christian and deserves the accolades because he wore the uniform and chose not to drink or gamble but we’re going straight to hell.
May 19th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Terrance; I am a part of a corps where we have several recovering alcoholics. I don’t think that we are being advocates for alcohol in our corps if we, as a corps that consists of soldiers, adherants, friends of the corps and so on have people in the corps who do indeed have and enjoy a social drink. The fact of the matter is, it takes all kinds of people to make a good balanced local church (corps). If we are all perfectly saved and have absolutely no vices in life, then we are already in heaven, because I have not seen a church like that.
I don’t think we should water down our beliefs at all, but do you really think we are going to reach people who are struggling with substance abuse or any of the other issues of today if we take the stand that everything is either black or white?
We support the alcoholics in our corps family and at the same time we love and support our friends of the Army who will have a social drink as long as it is not something they have problems with.
My friend, this problem is not unique to Ontario, it is everywhere, and like every other type of illness and addictive, do we take it off the market because there is a faction of people who abuse it.
I’d be interested in knowing if those of you who have such strong views against alcohol have always been saved in the Army? Sounds like a strange question, but in my experience it sometimes jades our views.
Again, as I have said in an earlier reply, I am a soldier, in fact, an officer who lives by my covanent and promises, but I also feel I know several sides of the story and what keeps coming back to me is when Jesus commented about it not so much what goes in the mouth as what comes out. And, we all know it does not take a drink for someone to slander another. I better stop as I feel like I’m rambling. I’d love to have this discussion with you guys in person.
Please, reply. I am very interested and very open to why you think I should change my stance.
Bless You All
Tony
May 19th, 2009 at 1:45 pm
Although this is not a huge issue for me I am always glad to be given an opportunity to express my opinion. Therefore, let me be bold enough to declare that I am a Salvation Army Officer who does not feel that drinking is a sin and as such should be removed from the soldiers covenant. Our covenant should be founded upon scripture and void of non-biblical positions, even though they might be rooted in our heritage and thought to serve our social-care programs. I actually think that these non-biblical positions might actually serve, in my opinion, to weaken our understanding of true holiness. If scripture has anything to say at all about alcohol and it’s relationship to holiness it rests in the realm of “excess”. Excess of any kind appears to be scripturally sinful, be it excess in eating, excess of power, excess re: love of money, and yes excess in drinking. All these areas can create huge social problems when indulged in excessively. Perhaps we would honour our holiness commitment more if we taught our young people and new soldiers (members) that the sin is not in the partaking but in the excess.
May 19th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
I am in total agreement with Tony, especially the point he made where he stated “Having a social drink in moderation is an acceptable practice in both the secular and Christian world, and if we, as Salvationists want to be relevent to “The World”, then we should be a little less condemning and more accepting. I have encountered many who are good at following rules but do not have love in their heart.
May 19th, 2009 at 6:00 pm
I disagree with Dave on pulling this from our Covenant although I think the argument is best made, or at least punctuated by the Officer’s Covenant implicitly. Historically, biblically, theologically and sadly I might add theoretically we stand in solidarity with the poor and marginalized. This includes those addicted to alcohol, gambling and the like (caffeine and food notwithstanding…see Rob’s initial point). Our stance on abstinence is completely in line with our solidarity as we abstain for the other, and we add voice to speak out against such ills on their behalf. This is also congruent with our Wesleyan heritage as we see holiness as social holiness, and our lives lived in community for the sake of others.
May 19th, 2009 at 8:33 pm
Tony, you make good points for sure. Of course I don’t agree in condemning people that drink alcohol. I said myself that alcohol is merely a substance, neither good nor bad. It’s when it is abused that problems arise. My problem was with my uniformed salvationist friends who would socially drink and think there was very little wrong with it. I know that covenants are hard to keep, and we all fail in them at times. How many of us as officers always, 100% of the time, “befriend the friendless”? See what I mean? Believe me, I do not see the world in black and white. But I know at the same time there is a human tendency to purposely cast things in shades of gray. As a teenager and a young college student, I didn’t understand much about our Army’s stance on alcohol. I think I do understand it better now. And by the way, you correctly say that the question wasn’t about the salvationist’s stance on alcohol. But that is how I chose to answer it, loaded question or otherwise. And also, my views have nothing to do with whether I grew up in the Army or not.
The reality is that not everyone in a corps setting is going to be a salvationist (in the uniformed sense of the word), as many of you pointed out. Many dedicated people in the corps I’ve served in engaged alongside of me in the great salvation war, and their commitment had been unwavering. My point is that there is value in Salvationists who agree to live by the covenant, in trying to keep that covenant, and more importantly, to help others live holistic lives whether that involves complete abstinence from alcohol or not.
And to the person who told of the abuse they suffered. Firstly, that is tragic to say the least. But I would respectfully say that no one in any posting said that uniformed salvationists are morally blameless, or that people who drink are going to hell. Those are two viewpoints that I certainly reject and would never support. But your point is taken. I think we should have a posting on holiness. There’s been a tendency over the years to view holiness primarily as purity – being morally pure. While purity is an aspect of holiness, Thomas Oord in his great book titled, “Relational Holiness” says that holiness is best understood as love. Sounds simple, but is actually quite profound the way he unpacks it.
Thanks to everyone for sharing. I respect the diverse views that were shared. I look forward to working alongside of you “out there” in a few months. God bless. RJ
May 20th, 2009 at 3:51 am
Friends, What a wondeful and diverse dialog. The heart and passion of each person involved in the conversation is very evident. Good work Rob. Just a comment on my query about how long you have been a Salvationist; the reason for the question is because of the ministry unit I am in right now. We have 60+ Soldiers on our roles with about 40 of them being Soldiers for most of their lives. You might be surprised to see just how little they can relate to some of the vices that the world is facing such as alcohol, drugs, gambling & infidelity.Many soldiers (and I believe they are wrong) feel that if you drink or buy a lottery ticket, then it’s off to hell with you. That’s what sacres me as an Officer and Soldier of the best Army in God’s world. What this really means here in the local context is that i have my work cut out for me.
To Name Withheld…my heart goes out to you and I thank God that you have been able to work through what happened in your life. It goes to show that there is a lot of horrible stuff being done by people from ALL backgrounds.
To Dave…I have to agree with Rick in saying that we should know what it is we are signing on our covanents and as a soldier I greed not to drink (by the way, I am the product of 2 generations of alcoholics and I myself was a heavy drinker for years). I have adherants and Friends of the Army on my roles who are just as Holy, just as serving, and just as loving, but because they like a social drink they know that soldiership is not an option to them. In fact, one of my adherants who enjoys a drink has just returned from Vegas on Saturday night. His first stop was to churc with us Sunday morning before heading off to work on Monday as an addictions counsellor.
Anyway friends, I’ve gone on way too long again. It has been great to hear the differing opinions and we all have to remember that the main thing is to keep an open mind and “KEEP FOCUSSED ON JESUS”
Blessings
Tony
May 20th, 2009 at 6:20 am
My, Oh My, how we have moved from where we once were to where we now are. Drinking outside of soldiership is and has always being a acceptiable pastime, but as a salvationist one who has made a covenant “Not with the Army” but with “God”. The Soldiers Covenant says” Therefore I do here and now, and for ever renounce the world with all its sinful pleasures, companionships, treasures and objects and declear my full determination boldly to show myself a “SOLDIER OF JESUS CHRIST” in all places, and companies no matter what I may have to suffer, do or lose by so doing.
This isn’t a question of weather as a soldier I disobey the army’s regulations or break my soldier covenant it ia about breaking my covenant I made with God. As a salvationist the world expects more from me.
May 20th, 2009 at 11:23 am
Great conversation! Although I risk taking this conversation in a slightly different direction I would like make a couple of final comments.
I agree that our position on drinking is rooted in our history which was influenced and defined by our Wesleyan roots.
I also agree that we should follow Paul’s ethic of the weaker brother/sister (Corinthians) which stresses self-imposed limitations for the sake of others.
However, the root of the discussion should always be grounded in “what does scripture teach” and only then should we draw into the conversation opinion/reflections based upon tradition, reason, and experience.
All too often, from my observation, we begin conversations such as these from extra-biblical points of view which, although they are very important and yes personal, must not be the beginning of the conversation. The conversation must begin with “what does scripture say”?
From my reading/understanding of scripture, drinking is not wrong/sinful although drinking to excess most certainly is.
Does this mean officers should be able to partake? That, for me is a totally different conversation.
May 20th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Dave let me know when the conversation starts about officers partaking? That should be a good one on the blood pressure.
It’s funny how a simple little question became a whole lot more when we put our own personalities into the equation.
it’s a tough one because as a Salvationist and especially as an officer we deal with those who have usually found the worst of the drink, but as a very logical thinker, looking at the majority of people in my world, the drink is not a real issue.
I am not sure when the original question was asked if it a question that would possibly be answered by soldiers and nonsoldiers alike. If we signed our covanent knowingly, then a part of that is very clear about alcohol. But I have a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ who did not sign what I did and who am I to say I am any better because I am a soldier.
Again guys, thanks for the dialog and the variety of opinions. Please keep an open mind friends (I will too).
God Bless You All
Tony
May 20th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
A healthy discussion about matters other than finance is sadely all too rare in Salvation Army ministry these days. Perhaps it is for this reason that I enter into the diaologue to offer thoughts from congregational life with a backdrop of theology and practicality in mind.
When asked “What is your view of drinking alcohol”, such a question is no more or less important as that of one’s view of materialism, conservation, the stock market, or other other such choices every believer makes in life… namely its natural !
In recent times members of congregational life have found need to understand how God can bring health to ones marriage, family, place of employment, not to mention attitudes and heart aches. As for how one views on the use of alcohol, I would venture to say most partake in some form and find themselves in step with much of the Evangelical community. For such reason, a growing challenge exists as to why we carry what some might consider a ‘fundamentalist’ view in an area both scripture and culture are not concerned with.
May 20th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Interesting exchange of thoughts and opinions. This topic interests me on a few different levels. Can one offer a truly objective opinion? We all speak subjectively at best. That subjectivity is based on our own worldviews that are shaped based on how we were raised, exposure, beliefs, experiences, etc. This worldview though rarely defined becomes the lens through which we see, experience and interpret life. Therefore I can easily accept everyone’s perspective as stated.
There is ongoing unofficial dialogue among Salvationists as to whether abstinence from alcohol should be a part of the Soldier’s Covenant. This debate will probably be with the Army until Christ returns. I share my perspective through the lens of my experience and officership. I pastor a growing church in an urban setting. Most of the people in my church are new to ‘church’ and The Salvation Army. For them, the issue of abstinence is not an issue nor is social drinking. It is a non-issue! For those of other denominational backgrounds who have joined our church, there is no issue with the consumption of alcohol; although they would have a real issue with the over-indulgence of it.
In terms of The Salvation Army and its stance on alcohol, I believe ‘context’ is of utmost importance. The Salvation Army is a vast Army of God that is spread all over this world. The context and culture in one society is no doubt different from other contexts and cultures. In other words, the context of The Salvation Army’s presence in downtown Toronto or Vancouver will look much different than The Salvation Army in other urban settings. It may very well look different from one urban setting to another. Therefore the issue of the social consumption of alcohol may best be addressed based on local context. The social drink may prove detrimental to the work of the Army in some areas whereas in other settings it may be a hindrance or obstacle to abstain from the social drink. It is critical for officers and lay leaders to be keenly aware of their context and setting.
From my experience and vantage point, the cookie-cutter model of Salvation Army policies and guidelines (including its stance on alcohol) do not equally apply to all contexts and situations. I do believe the Army’s leadership is beginning to recognize this matter.
May 20th, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Tony,
I did not mean to say that the problem is unique to Ontario. I was born and raised in Newfoundland, I am an officer as well and have served in Newfoundland, Bermuda, and Ontario. I was just giving my context when I mentioned Ontario.
I am in full support of a ‘well rounded’ local church body (corps). We have folks of every background at our corps. As you have said, this is absolutely essential to the Body. But this idea enforces my point. Perhaps I should have been more clear and said that it is important for the leadership of the body, not necessarily all the members, to create an safe and accepting environment for anyone who we might come into contact with.
My stance is not one of fundamentalism. I acknowledge all the other vices of character and such that affect society and the church and how little the church has traditionally done to address them. But at our corps we have set out to create an environment where we are honest and accountable to God and each other, allowing God to work in our lives to deal with all the aspects of our lives and character, both those that can be ‘observed’ and those that only the Spirit of God can know about. We have folks in our leadership at the corps who are social drinkers and also who have no issues with mild gambling, and others who from time to time gossip, slander, over eat, and so on. But as leadership we have all made commitments to the God, the corps, and each other to allow the Spirit of God to do the work He needs to do in us.
The people in my corps that take the same strong stance, are not for the most part life long Salvationists. I will qualify this by saying that our corps is different than many others, and we do not have a lot of life long Salvationists. It is interesting that some of the people who take an opposite point of view from me have been a part of the Army for the majority of thier lives. But, some of those who do share my view are those whose lives and families have been affected or nearly ndestoryed by acholol, and understand from personal expereince that no amount acholol is truly safe.
Thanks for the conversation.
May 21st, 2009 at 4:23 am
Wow, the passion behind each person’s views is so obvious and I believe the diversities will help to strengthen our Salvation Army in the years to come. Danny, nice to see you wade in on this, I thought about you while we were discussing it. You are right,the cookie cutter idea of many parts of the Army are out the window for the most part.
Again guys, great conversation and I am sure it will continue for many years to come on many different levels.
Blessings
Tony
May 21st, 2009 at 6:40 am
My Brothers & Sister in Christ,
As I read through the posts to date, an old saying that my dear mother always used to repeat comes to mind. “What a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive.” If one were to attempt to counter each point made by those who support a stance on “social drinking” my poor hands would be cramped. Suffice to say most arguments that support the “demon” fall under a few common principles that don’t hold much water and lead down the same slippery slope.
The term “social drinking” in itself is just of another of humankind’s feeble attempts at justifying the sin, which in this case is just another blatant form of idol worship.
If each one of us were to honestly stand (or bow) before a Holy God and ask a simple question the truth will become quite apparent. The question is this, “What is it that is in (or missing from) my life that causes me to believe that I need to drink?” Once you get your answer, and for some it may take a few rotations through the old flow chart, our loving and all-powerful God is more than capable of dealing with whatever is revealed.
Many blessings to all.
May 21st, 2009 at 8:05 am
I grew up in the army and completely understand the varied reasons for its stand against alcohol. As a youth I shared those opinions and was very vocal about the evils it held and its effects on society. I saw any amount of consumption as the first step in a possible lifelong journey in the “wrong” direction.
I am now a part of a different church body and my viewpoint has shifted slightly. My concern is not so much with the consumption of alcohol, which like any other thing can be a joy or a hindrance but with the army preoccupation with it’s control.
Again, I understand the background of the army and even that some of its major centers still operate in locations torn apart by alcohol abuse but allow me to give you an outsider perspective. I have watched Salvationists openly shun and look down upon wonderful Christian people for their responsible consumption of alcohol. They seem to think that they are truly not following the word if they even approach a glass of wine or a drink with friends. This causes me to wonder what on earth they would have done at the wedding feast where Jesus celebrated? That concerns me. Does the decision to “set yourself apart” allow you some measure of pride?
My second concern is with the promise to abstain appearing within the articles of war. It seems to me that if we are to covenant anything in this earthly world it should consist only of what the Lord asks us within His word. Aside from that we are trapped in legalism and law making which is certainly not what He would wish for us. This creates for us some sort of safety net of rules so that we see our Christianity as defined by the things that we do and not our relationship to God and His living word. That is dangerous ground. Just some food for thought.
May 21st, 2009 at 9:40 am
Great discussion and food for thought. For me, the soldiers’ covenants, both junior and senior were a help, a motivation to help me abstain during vulnerable years in my life. My daughter recently said the same thing, that her covenant keps her from trying alcohol and so is a good thing.
As I have grown and aged, though, my reasoning has gone in different directions. Having seen the harm alcohol can do (over and over again through so many ruined lives)and also seeing the joy and pleasure one can partake in without alcohol I simply now see no good reason to drink alcohol. Whether it was to remain a part of our covenant or as Dave suggests, were to at some point be removed, I would not drink simply because in my opinion it is a stupid thing to do. Abstinence removes the possibility of having one drink too many even once and thereby having my judgment clouded and choosing to do something I would not normally do.
I agree with Dave that the Bible must be our guide but there are some things not specfically addressed in the Bible. I think one of the biggest is the invention of the automobile. When people left the wedding in Canaan after Jesus’ first miracle (and yes it was definitely alcohol He made), they did not then get behind the wheels of large metal killing machines. Their camels were not drunk. Times have changed and the risks associated with drinknig far outweigh any perceived benefit which would pale in comparison to the joy of being full of the Holy Spirit.
I just fail to see any scenario in which a Chirstian in today’s world would want to drink alcohol. Period.
May 29th, 2009 at 11:14 am
Good to read your thoughts Gord. As always, well thought out. If you know me, as Gord does, you will know that I love a messy faith because if forces us to talk things out, to wrestle with divergent opinions and to ultimately be driven back to the heart of our faith and practice…God’s Word. His word warns of the twin extremes of Liberalism and Legalism, both extremely dangerous, however as Christian brothers and sisters there is room for all of us as we seek to walk the winding road in between.
Blessings upon you all.
August 24th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
There are some very interesting points being made by various individuals. Personally, my story is one of first hand experience with the (very) negative side that alcohol brings into someones life. I can find enough biblical texts to warn me about the pitfalls that come with drinking alcohol to warrant The Salvation Army’s stand on abstanance. For me it was this very stand that first attacted me to the gospel message (through the witness of Salvationists)some twenty years ago. Today, I practice abstanance as part of testimony/witness to the world that Jesus is more satisfying than any amount of drink; great or small, exesive or social. However, I do regret the actions of some of my well meaning brothers and sisters whom condemn those that drink, to outright hell fire and brimstone. It might just be that we are intruding on Yaweh’s terriorty when we do. To sum up my position, I will conclude with this. If God has called me to hold sober watch while journeying through life, then “Praise God” for the Grace that He provides me to do so. However, I should not consider anything to be equal (social drink or not) to the negative impact that one little drink could have on another person searching for the truth.
This Storman Norman signing off for now. Good debating to all.
January 19th, 2010 at 9:26 am
I think that we all agree that it is dangerous to drink and drive because it compromises our judgement. If drinking comprises our driving isn’t drinking going to comprise our efforts to live a Christian life ? If drinking is going to compromise our effort to resemble Christ then that would appear to be a good reason for avoiding it. It would be interesting to know how many Christian’s lives have been ruined by taking that first glass of alcohol. As a Salvationist I recognize how alcohol has destroyed many people’s lives and that of their spouse and family. I witness to the sadness that God has experienced over such events by practising abstinence.
In the early days of the SA many of the early converts were former alcoholics. Salvationists learned to be on their guard against the world and the devil. This is indicated in some of the older songs such as “take the world but give me Jesus”. Holiness means to be in the world but not of the world. We are set apart. (John 17:13-18) We are holy. That is a sacred privilege not a slur on our character. Holiness is a gradual process as we allow God’s will to influence our thinking and actions in such matters. There will always be peer pressure to conform and a fear of being different. St Peter fell to that temptation when he denied knowing Jesus. Having worked with addicts for the last 8 years I have discovered that the roots of addiction are often found in a desire to compromise to experience acceptance of other people. As Savationists we have compromised in so many different ways as technology has improved and we have become wealthier, but I believe along with General John Gowans that “in a world of shifting values there are standards that remain, I believe that holy living by God’s grace we may attain. All would hear the Holy Spirit if they listened to his voice (that is the key to any question relating to Christian living) if they listened to his voice” (song 324 SAB) Scripture is vitally important but we have to read the scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit to relate it to today’s issues. For example scripture is silent about gene therapy and cloning. These are issues for which we need to pray for God’s guidance. Our response to the consumption of alcohol should also be the outcome of our prayer to God regarding his will in this matter.
When I am with non Christian friends and choose a non alcoholic drink instead of alcohol it gives me an opportunity to show, and explain if asked, that much of my fulfillment and joy in life is the result of living to please God and not myself. Interestingly enough the step 11 of Alcoholics Anonymous route to recovery from alcohol addiction says :
“sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God (as we understood him) praying only for knowledge of his will and the power to carry it out.